Anima Christi

Soul of Christ, sanctify me. Body of Christ, save me. Blood of Christ, inebriate me. Water from the side of Christ, wash me. Passion of Christ, strengthen me. O good Jesus, hear me. Within Thy wounds, hide me. Suffer me not to be separated from Thee. From the malicious enemy, defend me. In the hour of my death call me and bid me come unto Thee, that I may praise Thee with Thy saints and with Thy angels forever and ever. Amen.

Monday, May 30, 2005

Hey Teacher, leave those kids alone! (Pink Floyd)

I’ve pestered you Purdy’s enough, and think I have a basic grasp of your concept of authority. In this post I’ll share the first foundational premise of my framework of authority. Once we comment on this we can move on to a second, and more controversial premise.

The first premise of my framework of authority rests on the fact that I believe that Christ founded a visible Church, that the leaders of this primitive visible Church (the Apostles) were commissioned to preach the Word of God (primarily orally), and that those under the authority of the Apostles were bound to accept their teaching not as the word of men, but as the Word of God. The acceptance of the authority of these men and the acceptance of their teaching as the Word of God was a necessary condition to be able to exercise divine Faith that could result in Justification and Salvation.

Jesus Christ did not write down His Word (nor did He ask the Apostles to write down His Word) and ask His Apostles to start handing His written Word out to people to then let His Holy Spirit guide them individually to the truth or a portion of the truth. The primitive Church under the Apostles shows the reality of Christian faith being lived out as a community of believers, a Body, being “shepherded” by a collective Apostolic authority which is the cause of the unity of the Faith (as that collective Apostolic authority was being guided and protected by the Holy Spirit).

The following rather lengthy portion consists of quotes from a writing of Cardinal John Henry Newman entitled “Discourses to Mixed Congragations”. This is Discouse 10, on “Faith and Private Judgment”, which can be read in its entirety at the Newman Reader website. It is essentially what I stated above, but much more cogently expressed.
http://www.newmanreader.org


“… Now, in the first place, what is faith? it is assenting to a doctrine as true, which we do not see, which we cannot prove, because God says it is true, who cannot lie. And further than this, since God says it is true, not with His own voice, but by the voice of His messengers, it is assenting to what man says, not simply viewed as a man, but to what he is commissioned to declare, as a messenger, prophet, or ambassador from God. In the ordinary course of this world we account things true either because we see them, or because we can perceive that they follow and are deducible from what we do see; that is, we gain truth by sight or by reason, not by faith. You will say indeed, that we accept a number of things which we cannot prove or see, on the word of others; certainly, but then we accept what they say only as the word of man; and we have not commonly that absolute and unreserved confidence in them, which nothing can shake. We know that man is open to mistake, and we are always glad to find some confirmation of what he says, from other quarters, in any important matter; or we receive his information with negligence and unconcern, as something of little consequence, as a matter of opinion; or, if we act upon it, it is as a matter of prudence, thinking it best and safest to do so. We take his word for what it is worth, and we use it either according to our necessity, or its probability. We keep the decision in our own hands, and reserve to ourselves the right of reopening the question whenever we please. This is very different from Divine faith; he who believes that God is true, and that this is His word, which He has committed to man, has no doubt at all. He is as certain that the doctrine taught is true, as that God is true; and he is certain, because God is true, because God has spoken, not because he sees its truth or can prove its truth. That is, faith has two peculiarities;—it is most certain, decided, positive, immovable in its assent, and it gives this assent not because it sees with eye, or sees with the reason, but because it receives the tidings from one who comes from God.

This is what faith was in the time of the Apostles, as no one can deny; and what it was then, it must be now, else it ceases to be the same thing. I say, it certainly was this in the Apostles' time, for you know they preached to the world that Christ was the Son of God, that He was born of a Virgin, that He had ascended on high, that He would come again to judge all, the living and the dead. Could the world see all this? could it prove it? how then were men to receive it? why did so many embrace it? on the word of the Apostles, who were, as their powers showed, messengers from God. Men were told to submit their reason to a living authority. Moreover, whatever an Apostle said, his converts were bound to believe; when they entered the Church, they entered it in order to learn. The Church was their teacher; they did not come to argue, to examine, to pick and choose, but to accept whatever was put before them. No one doubts, no one can doubt this, of those primitive times. A Christian was bound to take without doubting all that the Apostles declared to be revealed; if the Apostles spoke, he had to yield an internal assent of his mind; it would not be enough to keep silence, it would not be enough not to oppose: it was not allowable to credit in a measure; it was not allowable to doubt. No; if a convert had his own private thoughts of what was said, and only kept them to himself, if he made some secret opposition to the teaching, if he waited for further proof before he believed it, this would be a proof that he did not think the Apostles were sent from God to reveal His will; it would be a proof that he did not in any true sense believe at all. Immediate, implicit submission of the mind was, in the lifetime of the Apostles, the only, the necessary token of faith; then there was no room whatever for what is now called private judgment. No one could say: "I will choose my religion for myself, I will believe this, I will not believe that; I will pledge myself to nothing; I will believe just as long as I please, and no longer; what I believe today I will reject tomorrow, if I choose. I will believe what the Apostles have as yet said, but I will not believe what they shall say in time to come." No; either the Apostles were from God, or they were not; if they were, everything that they preached was to be believed by their hearers; if they were not, there was nothing for their hearers to believe. To believe a little, to believe more or less, was impossible; it contradicted the very notion of believing: if one part was to be believed, every part was to be believed; it was an absurdity to believe one thing and not another; for the word of the Apostles, which made the one true, made the other true too; they were nothing in themselves, they were all things, they were an infallible authority, as coming from God. The world had either to become Christian, or to let it alone; there was no room for private tastes and fancies, no room for private judgment.

Now surely this is quite clear from the nature of the case; but is also clear from the words of Scripture. "We give thanks to God," says St. Paul, "without ceasing, because when ye had received from us the word of hearing, which is of God, ye received it, not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the Word of God." Here you see St. Paul expresses what I have said above; that the Word comes from God, that it is spoken by men, that it must be received, not as man's word, but as God's word. So in another place he says: "He who despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given in us His Holy Spirit". Our Saviour had made a like declaration already: "He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me". Accordingly, St. Peter on the day of Pentecost said: "Men of Israel, hear these words, God hath raised up this Jesus, whereof we are witnesses. Let all the house of Israel know most certainly that God hath made this Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ." At another time he said: "We ought to obey God, rather than man; we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Ghost, whom God has given to all who obey Him". And again: "He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He (Jesus) who hath been appointed by God to be the Judge of the living and of the dead". And you know that the persistent declaration of the first preachers was: "Believe and thou shalt be saved": they do not say, "prove our doctrine by your own reason," nor "wait till you see before you believe"; but, "believe without seeing and without proving, because our word is not our own, but God's word". Men might indeed use their reason in inquiring into the pretensions of the Apostles; they might inquire whether or not they did miracles; they might inquire whether they were predicted in the Old Testament as coming from God; but when they had ascertained this fairly in whatever way, they were to take all the Apostles said for granted without proof; they were to exercise their faith, they were to be saved by hearing. Hence, as you perhaps observed, St. Paul significantly calls the revealed doctrine "the word of hearing," in the passage I quoted; men came to hear, to accept, to obey, not to criticise what was said; and in accordance with this he asks elsewhere: "How shall they believe Him, whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Now, my dear brethren, consider, are not these two states or acts of mind quite distinct from each other;—to believe simply what a living authority tells you, and to take a book, such as Scripture, and to use it as you please, to master it, that is, to make yourself the master of it, to interpret it for yourself, and to admit just what you choose to see in it, and nothing more? Are not these two procedures distinct in this, that in the former you submit, in the latter you judge? At this moment I am not asking you which is the better, I am not asking whether this or that is practicable now, but are they not two ways of taking up a doctrine, and not one? is not submission quite contrary to judging? Now, is it not certain that faith in the time of the Apostles consisted in submitting? and is it not certain that it did not consist in judging for one's self. It is in vain to say that the man who judges from the Apostles' writings, does submit to those writings in the first instance, and therefore has faith in them; else why should he refer to them at all? There is, I repeat, an essential difference between the act of submitting to a living oracle, and to his written words; in the former case there is no appeal from the speaker, in the latter the final decision remains with the reader. Consider how different is the confidence with which you report another's words in his presence and in his absence. If he be absent, you boldly say that he holds so and so, or said so and so; but let him come into the room in the midst of the conversation, and your tone is immediately changed. It is then, "I think I have heard you say something like this, or what I took to be this"; or you modify considerably the statement or the fact to which you originally pledged him, dropping one-half of it for safety sake, or retrenching the most startling portions of it; and then after all you wait with some anxiety to see whether he will accept any portion of it at all. The same sort of process takes place in the case of the written document of a person now dead. I can fancy a man magisterially expounding St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians or to the Ephesians, who would be better content with the writer's absence than his sudden reappearance among us; lest the Apostle should take his own meaning out of his commentator's hands and explain it for himself. In a word, though he says he has faith in St. Paul's writings, he confessedly has no faith in St. Paul; and though he may speak much about truth as found in Scripture, he has no wish at all to be like one of these Christians whose names and deeds occur in it.
Such is the only rational, consistent account of faith; but so far are Protestants from professing it, that they laugh at the very notion of it. They laugh at the notion itself of men pinning their faith (as they express themselves) upon Pope or Council; they think it simply superstitious and narrow-minded, to profess to believe just what the Church believes, and to assent to whatever she will say in time to come on matters of doctrine. That is, they laugh at the bare notion of doing what Christians undeniably did in the time of the Apostles. Observe, they do not merely ask whether the Catholic Church has a claim to teach, has authority, has the gifts;—this is a reasonable question;—no, they think that the very state of mind which such a claim involves in those who admit it, namely, the disposition to accept without reserve or question, that this is slavish. They call it priestcraft to insist on this surrender of the reason, and superstition to make it. That is, they quarrel with the very state of mind which all Christians had in the age of the Apostles; nor is there any doubt (who will deny it?) that those who thus boast of not being led blindfold, of judging for themselves, of believing just as much and just as little as they please, of hating dictation, and so forth, would have found it an extreme difficulty to hang on the lips of the Apostles, had they lived at their date, or rather would have simply resisted the sacrifice of their own liberty of thought, would have thought life eternal too dearly purchased at such a price, and would have died in their unbelief. And they would have defended themselves on the plea that it was absurd and childish to ask them to believe without proof, to bid them give up their education, and their intelligence, and their science, and in spite of all those difficulties which reason and sense find in the Christian doctrine, in spite of its mysteriousness, its obscurity, its strangeness, its unacceptableness, its severity, to require them to surrender themselves to the teaching of a few unlettered Galilæans, or a learned indeed but fanatical Pharisee. This is what they would have said then; and if so, is it wonderful they do not become Catholics now? The simple account of their remaining as they are, is, that they lack one thing,—they have not faith; it is a state of mind, it is a virtue, which they do not recognise to be praiseworthy, which they do not aim at possessing.

What they feel now, my brethren, is just what both Jew and Greek felt before them in the time of the Apostles, and what the natural man has felt ever since. The great and wise men of the day looked down upon faith, then as now, as if it were unworthy the dignity of human nature: "See your vocation, brethren, that there are not," among you, "many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but the foolish things of the world hath God chosen to confound the strong, and the mean things of the world, and the things that are contemptible, hath God chosen, and things that are not, that He might destroy the things that are, that no flesh might glory in His sight". Hence the same Apostle speaks of "the foolishness of preaching". Similar to this is what our Lord had said in His prayer to the Father: "I thank Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto little ones". Now, is it not plain that men of this day have just inherited the feelings and traditions of these falsely wise and fatally prudent persons in our Lord's day? They have the same obstruction in their hearts to entering the Catholic Church, which Pharisees and Sophists had before them; it goes against them to believe her doctrine, not so much for want of evidence that she is from God, as because, if so, they shall have to submit their minds to living men, who have not their own cultivation or depth of intellect, and because they must receive a number of doctrines, whether they will or no, which are strange to their imagination and difficult to their reason. The very characteristic of the Catholic teaching and of the Catholic teacher is to them a preliminary objection to their becoming Catholics, so great, as to throw into the shade any argument however strong, which is producible in behalf of the mission of those teachers and the origin of that teaching. In short, they have not faith.

They have not in them the principle of faith; and I repeat, it is nothing to the purpose to urge that at least they firmly believe Scripture to be the Word of God. In truth, it is much to be feared that their acceptance of Scripture itself is nothing better than a prejudice or inveterate feeling impressed on them when they were children. A proof of it is this; that, while they profess to be so shocked at Catholic miracles, and are not slow to call them "lying wonders," they have no difficulty at all about Scripture narratives, which are quite as difficult to the reason as any miracles recorded in the history of the Saints. I have heard on the contrary of Catholics who have been startled at first reading in Scripture the narratives of the ark in the deluge, of the tower of Babel, of Balaam and Balac, of the Israelites' flight from Egypt and entrance into the promised land, and of Esau's and Saul's rejection; which the bulk of Protestants receive without any effort of mind. How, then, do these Catholics accept them? by faith. They say, "God is true, and every man a liar". How come Protestants so easily to receive them? by faith? Nay, I conceive that in most cases there is no submission of the reason at all; simply they are so familiar with the passages in question, that the narrative presents no difficulties to their imagination; they have nothing to overcome. If, however, they are led to contemplate these passages in themselves, and to try them in the balance of probability, and to begin to question about them, as will happen when their intellect is cultivated, then there is nothing to bring them back to their former habitual or mechanical belief; they know nothing of submitting to authority, that is, they know nothing of faith; for they have no authority to submit to. They either remain in a state of doubt without any great trouble of mind, or they go on to ripen into utter disbelief on the subjects in question, though they may say nothing about it. Neither before they doubt, nor when they doubt, is there any token of the presence in them of a power subjecting reason to the Word of God. No; what looks like faith, is a mere hereditary persuasion, not a personal principle; it is a habit which they have learned in the nursery, which has never changed into anything higher, and which is scattered and disappears, like a mist, before the light, such as it is, of reason. If, however, there are Protestants, who are not in one or other of these two states, either of credulity or of doubt, but who firmly believe in spite of all difficulties, they certainly have some claim to be considered under the influence of faith; but there is nothing to show that such persons, where they are found, are not in the way to become Catholics, and perhaps they are already called so by their friends, showing in their own examples the logical, indisputable connexion which exists between possessing faith and joining the Church.
If, then, faith be now the same faculty of mind, the same sort of habit or act, which it was in the days of the Apostles, I have made good what I set about showing. But it must be the same; it cannot mean two things; the Word cannot have changed its meaning. Either say that faith is not necessary now at all, or take it to be what the Apostles meant by it, but do not say that you have it, and then show me something quite different, which you have put in the place of it. In the Apostles' days the peculiarity of faith was submission to a living authority; this is what made it so distinctive; this is what made it an act of submission at all; this is what destroyed private judgment in matters of religion. If you will not look out for a living authority, and will bargain for private judgment, then say at once that you have not Apostolic faith. And in fact you have it not; the bulk of this nation has it not; confess you have it not; and then confess that this is the reason why you are not Catholics. You are not Catholics because you have not faith.

Oh, deplorable state! deplorable because it is utterly and absolutely their own fault, and because such great stress is laid in Scripture, as they know, on the necessity of faith for salvation. Faith is there made the foundation and commencement of all acceptable obedience. It is described as the "argument" or "proof of things not seen"; by faith men have understood that God is, that He made the world, that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him, that the flood was coming, that their Saviour was to be born. "Without faith it is impossible to please God"; "by faith we stand"; "by faith we walk"; "by faith we overcome the world". When our Lord gave to the Apostles their commission to preach all over the world, He continued, "He that believeth and is baptised, shall be saved; but he that believeth not, shall be condemned". And He declared to Nicodemus, "He that believeth in the Son, is not judged; but he that doth not believe is already judged, because he believeth not in the Name of the Only-begotten Son of God". He said to the Pharisees, "If you believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins". To the Jews, "Ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep". And you may recollect that before His miracles, He commonly demands faith of the supplicant: "All things are possible," He says, "to him that believeth"; and we find in one place, "He could not do any miracle," on account of the unbelief of the inhabitants.

Has faith changed its meaning, or is it less necessary now? Is it not still what it was in the Apostles' day, the very characteristic of Christianity, the special instrument of renovation, the first disposition for justification, one out of the three theological virtues? God might have renewed us by other means, by sight, by reason, by love, but He has chosen to "purify our hearts by faith"; it has been His will to select an instrument which the world despises, but which is of immense power. He preferred it, in His infinite wisdom, to every other; and if men have it not, they have not the very element and rudiment, out of which are formed, on which are built, the Saints and Servants of God. And they have it not; they are living, they are dying, without the hopes, without the aids of the Gospel, because, in spite of so much that is good in them, in spite of their sense of duty, their tenderness of conscience on many points, their benevolence, their uprightness, their generosity, they are under the dominion (I must say it) of a proud fiend; they have this stout spirit within them, they determine to be their own masters in matters of thought, about which they know so little; they consider their own reason better than any one's else; they will not admit that any one comes from God who contradicts their own view of truth. What! is none their equal in wisdom anywhere? is there none other whose word is to be taken on religion? is there none to wrest from them their ultimate appeal to themselves? Have they in no possible way the occasion or opportunity of faith? Is it a virtue, which, in consequence of their transcendent sagacity, their prerogative of omniscience, they must give up hope of exercising? If the pretensions of the Catholic Church do not satisfy them, let them go somewhere else, if they can. If they are so fastidious that they cannot trust her as the oracle of God, let them find another more certainly from Him than the House of His own institution, which has ever been called by His name, has ever maintained the same claims, has ever taught one substance of doctrine, and has triumphed over those who preached any other. Since Apostolic faith was in the beginning reliance on man's word, as being God's word, since what faith was then such it is now, since faith is necessary for salvation, let them attempt to exercise it towards another, if they will not accept the Bride of the Lamb. Let them, if they can, put faith in some of those religions which have lasted a whole two or three centuries in a corner of the earth. Let them stake their eternal prospects on kings and nobles and parliaments and soldiery, let them take some mere fiction of the law, or abortion of the schools, or idol of a populace, or upstart of a crisis, or oracle of lecture-rooms, as the prophet of God. Alas! they are hardly bestead if they must possess a virtue, which they have no means of exercising,—if they must make an act of faith, they know not on whom, and know not why!”

Any comments/questions to this rather general first premise?

27 Comments:

At Monday, May 30, 2005 7:33:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

BTW, the title line refers not to our discussion (God forbid), but to the human embodiment of an authoritative Teacher. Just wanted to make that clear.

 
At Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:40:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

"We give thanks to God without ceasing, because when ye had received from us the word of hearing, which is of God, ye received it, not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the Word of God."

"He who despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given in us His Holy Spirit".

"He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me"

Aside from some controversial comments you think Newman makes, I would like the essence of His argument critiqued.

Main argument-- The Apostles were commissoned by God and given authority by God that those under the authority could not pick and choose what they wanted to believe as true. Could the Church at Ephasus recieve Paul's letter to the Ephesians and pick and choose among what the good St. Paul demanded of them?

In essence, do you believe the Apostles had God-given authority that required the submission of the faithful in the primitive Church, or not? Could one disagree with their teaching, because the "Holy Spirit" confirmed within them a teaching contrary to that of the Apostles?

 
At Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:52:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>"to be something completely spiritual, so that God (through the Holy Spirit) does indeed speak with His own voice; and that indeed it is only that voice which we understand."

And I would argue this God speaking directly to the individual via His Holy Spirit is not the apostolic or Scriptural model (vs God speaking to the individual via His Holy Spirit through the Church).

The argument is not that the Holy Spirit cannot work outside of the Church with individuals, or does not teach individually, but that the primitive Church was clearly established with the understanding that the Holy Spirit normatively taught individuals the Truth not though a completely "spiritual" experience, but though the teaching of the Apostles as leaders of the primitive Church.

 
At Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:59:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>"a hypothetical statement that everyone knows could never be true. But, for the record, I don't. I think it was possible for the living, breathing apostles to say things that were wrong."

Certainly I think it was a hypothetical in regards to when they were teaching "the Gospel". That is his whole point, if any individual or group is at odds with the Gospel WE teach, let him be ananthema.

Of course I agree that it was also possible for the Apostles to say things that were wrong, just as they could write things that were wrong. But when they taught that deposit of faith they had been given (whether oral or written), they did not teach error.

 
At Thursday, June 02, 2005 12:08:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Peter,

My life is to crazy at the moment to give you a thoughtful answer to the points that you raised. But I would like to make a quick point that you do not seem to be anticipating.

I believe that the Bible has given us tests to recognize false teachers and false authorities claiming to speak for God. And I believe that the Catholic Church flunks just about every test.

Furthermore, I believe that Jesus founded a church that the gates of hell could not stand against and I believe that the Catholic Church has been persecuting that Church since at least the time of Augustine.

All that I said above is all just a bunch of blather except I do hope it starts you thinking about how silly is to start on the historical type arguments without coming to some kind of agreement about what the Bible says.

Anyway, I don't think we got over the whole nihilistic thing yet. Rundy is just too concise for my taste, but I know he is trying his best to keep things at a length that you can handle. Sill, I think the concept of how we can know things and what the point is in discussing things with other people has still not been fleshed out fully yet.

About that Pink Floyd song, I always thought is should be an anthem for homeschoolers. But just in case you have not been keeping track of the years flying by; All of us Purdy boys who have been posting on your blog are old enough to drink. Not that we do. We are too righteous for that.

 
At Thursday, June 02, 2005 1:48:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

All of us Purdy boys who have been posting on your blog are old enough to drink. Not that we do. We are too righteous for that.

Har Har, Teman. If you are going to call me out for labeling ourselves heretics then I am going to call you out for this one. We aren't righteous we're just philistines because we don't like the taste. Dad claims good wine tastes good but all I can think is it tastes like diluted antiseptic alcohol with flavoring added.

But I don't even know what Pink Floyd or drinking has to do with our discussion. I'm so culturally illiterate I only vaguely know it is a band. (Obviously Teman is more up to snuff in that regard.)

*****

Now on to what Peter wrote:

Aside from some controversial comments you think Newman makes, I would like the essence of His argument critiqued.

You make that sound simple.

If the whole of Newman's argument was so simple, or its essence so clear, what did Newman write so much? And if Newman felt it necessary to write at such length how are we going to agree on what is the "essence"?

Not that writing a lot, or dealing with a lot of writing has stopped me yet but what is your essence of his argument might not be what I see as the essence of his argument.

But before we get into all that I want to know how, or what, are we supposed to critique?

Consider: Are you saying that we can judge whether Newman is correct or not? If we can judge the merit of Newman's argument, haven't we just contracted Newman's position that "Men were told to submit their reason to a living authority" and "The Church was their teacher; they did not come to argue, to examine, to pick and choose, but to accept whatever was put before them"

You might say we can critique what Newman is saying because he isn't an apostle but isn't that disingenuous? Isn't Newman (supposedly) repeating what has already been stated in the Bible? If so, we can't (by your view) critique what he (and the Bible) has said or else you (along with us) are moving out of faith and into a sinful frame of mind (judging for ourselves, not simply accepting). We must accept what the bible, the apostolic authority, and Newman (because he is only repeating the former) has said.

If I don't simply accept what you and Newman have presented, how can you encourage me to act sinfully by soliciting private judgments on what we should be accepting in Faith? If we don't accept what Newman has just put before us but now make a "private judgment" on this argument and its merits, haven't we just contracted the very position Newman puts forward? If I critique Newman's argument and decide I agree with him, I'm not actually agreeing with Newman because he is saying that determining if something is right (private judgment as he calls it) is a perverse and pernicious thing (in relation to God's declaration--I do understand Newman's distinction between biblical matters and matters of everyday life). So if I make a judgment that Newman is right Newman would still say I am perverse and pernicious because I haven't accepted this Biblical truth in faith but I've instead continued in my faithless self-willed ways.

Don't you see the contradiction here?

If you don't think judging the merits of Newman's position of authority is a contradiction with that very position I'd dearly like to know how you reconcile the two in your own mind.

Obviously I strongly disagree with Newman on many points. At present I will say he brings up a lot of important issues. But I have nothing favorable to say about how he handles those important questions.

And before I go any further I want to know how you clear up the above mentioned contradiction.

 
At Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:22:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>We aren't righteous we're just philistines because we don't like the taste.

Don't like the taste! On hot and heavily humid day, after a long and taxing walk, what could tast better?

>>>And before I go any further I want to know how you clear up the above mentioned contradiction.

I think this has to do with how Catholics and Protestants use the term "Private Judgement".

The term private judgement to the Catholic is not synonymous with "the use of reason" or "the ability to choose" or "engaging the will to act".

Private judgement as critiqued by Newman and other Catholics is descriptive of a specific Protestant principle of authority and ecclesiology. It is related to the Protestant term "supremacy of conscience", in that if an individual feels that if the Holy Spirit teaches them a truth that conflicts with ANY outside authority, the individual conscience reigns supreme. In any such conflict the outside "human" authority must be disregarded, and the individuals' exercise of the "Holy Spirit" is the final authority.

I'll quote Dave Armstong here because I think he sums it up well and I want to give him credit.

"Private judgment is making oneself the ultimate arbiter of spiritual truth (with the aid of the Holy Spirit, the Bible, godly teachers, etc., but in the end the individual reigns supreme). The Catholic repudiates this. And (as converts are often accused) I didn't use "private judgment" when I converted. What I did was precisely the opposite of that; I recognized that my private judgment was quite fallible and ultimately untrustworthy, and that the Catholic Church was infallible and entirely trustworthy, because (I believed, for other reasons, so that this is not a circular process) it was established by God, and has charisms and aspects such as indefectibility which I do not possess as an individual.

So I renounced my private judgment and accepted the claims of the Church in faith (yet not in opposition to reason, and also secondarily due to the myriad of rational, historical, and biblical difficulties in all of the Protestant Christianities; as well as issues of moral theology). Why I thought the Church was what it claimed to be is a whole different discussion. But I was not exercising private judgment; I was, rather, yielding and submitting to apostolic authority and apostolic succession, and repudiating the rejection of same by Protestantism."

I hope that clears it up a bit, rather than muddling things further.

 
At Friday, June 03, 2005 6:45:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find this statement so contradictory that I can not get past it..

I recognized that my private judgment was quite fallible and ultimately untrustworthy, and that the Catholic Church was infallible and entirely trustworthy, because (I believed, for other reasons, so that this is not a circular process) it was established by God, and has charisms and aspects such as indefectibility which I do not possess as an individual.

How can a private judgment that is fallible and ultimately untrustworthy be trusted to understand that the Catholic Church is infallible and entirely trustworthy? If I believed that the Catholic Church was all the things that you and other Catholics claim, I would submit my judgment to it as well. You want to have it both ways. You admit that your reason is corrupt, but you say that your reason assures you that the Catholic Church is not corrupt.

How can you convince me by logic and reason that I need the Catholic Church because my logic and reason are corrupt? You are arguing cross purpose with yourself.

I believe that my logic and my reason are corrupt. My only hope that my faith will endure is my belief that God is powerful enough to save me in spite of my failings. Even through my failings if he so chooses. I believe that he can reveal himself to me through my reasoning ability if he so chooses. But my trust is not in my reason, but in his power. Without that power, I have no hope. Rich Mullins said it better than I can in his song Somewhere

Somewhere
Beyond these reasons and feelings
Somewhere
Beyond the passion and fatigue
I know You're there
And that Your Spirit is leading me
Somewhere
Beyond all this


Just like Rich Mullins, I don't hold out my reasons and feelings as being without error. But I do know that God is revealing himself to me. Though my understanding of his revelation is imperfect just as I am imperfect in everything that I do, nonetheless I still believe that he is leading me.

The direction that he is leading me in seems to be one that takes me farther and farther from the Catholic Church.

 
At Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:26:00 AM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>How can a private judgment that is fallible and ultimately untrustworthy be trusted to understand that the Catholic Church is infallible and entirely trustworthy?

You misunderstand the definition of private judgment as I just defined it. It is not dealing with reason or logic primarily, it is a system of authority. That system of authority he found to be untrustworthy, and the Catholic framework of authority he found to be trustworthy.

A Catholic is the last person you will find denigrating reason or logic, and I don't believe either reason or logic to be so "corrupt" that one can not come to recognize the Truth. This is a Protestant understanding of reason, and the utter "depravity" of man.

>>>Just like Rich Mullins, I don't hold out my reasons and feelings as being without error. But I do know that God is revealing himself to me. "And that Your Spirit is leading me Somewhere Beyond all this".

It's funny you should bring up Rich, a conflicted and complicated soul (I mean that in an endearing way). Did you know that Rich Mullins was only a few days from being officially received into the Catholic Church when he was killed?

 
At Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:33:00 AM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>"See, I must be following a moralty higher than myself, because I am doing what the Church told me to."

I follow a "morality" higher than myself because I believe that Christ founded a Church, His Body, speaking with His authority and His voice. In submitting to that same Church, I am doing nothing more than submitting to Him. And I would say this principle is no different than the primitive Apostolic practice as clearly found in Scripture. That is what I would like to talk specifically about, but it seems no one wants to go there.

I don't follow the corallary between asceticism and Catholicism.
In one we are talking about a possible God-ordained authority that one submits to in Faith, whereas the other is simply a personal practice of denial.

>>>Your answer, I would guess, is that the hypothesis is the same as asking what I would do if God suddenly endorsed pedophilia. I have faith that God would never do such a thing, and you extend the same faith to the Church.

Exactly, which why it is silly to base any argument on "what if" hypotheticals, instead of "what is".

 
At Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:36:00 AM, Blogger Peter said...

Here's a link about Rich Mullins, if you would like.

http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1998/05/06/

 
At Saturday, June 04, 2005 10:01:00 AM, Blogger Peter said...

I think it is important to seriously ponder the fact that the Scriptures were written by men and not God. Of course these men were inspired by God, but these utterly fallible and all too human men were given a charism that allowed them to write what we consider to be the Word of God.

Jesus could have written the Scriptures. But the fact is that God chose to reveal Himself through fallible men. We see the Apostles with a collective authority in the primitive Church. Certainly Christianity could have been revealed differently, but we don't discuss what could have been, but what was. And the Apostolic model is God working through fallible men (the Apostles) to authoritatively guide and teach the early Church.

You all readily accept the idea of inspiration of the Scriptures, even though written by fallible men. Inspirition is a positive and additive charism, so much greater than the charism of infallibility (as narrowly defined by the Catholic Church) which is negative in character and non-additive. It strikes me as rather odd that the charism of Inspiration is accepted by Faith without the slightest hesitation, but the idea that the lesser charism of Infallibility which would preserve that Inspired Deposit of Faith from being twisted into something it wasn't is decried as something evil or impossible or is an altogether ridiculous notion.

 
At Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:54:00 AM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>"many men (all those exercising the authority of the Catholic Church) are always acting as perfect representatives of God."

When has the Catholic Church ever claimed this!!!??? Yikes.

>>>"I think you would find, if you honestly looked, that the Catholic church has contradicted itself at it highest levels--not merely "expanded" its original teaching, but contradicted itself. I thing you would find that the Catholic Church, at its highest levels, engaged in practices as obviously immoral as pedophila."

Certainly the leadership of the Catholic Church has contradicted itself in many non-Dogmatic statements. Certainly the leadership of the Catholic Church has at some times in its history at highest levels engaged in grossly immoral behavior. We have no disagreement here. You don't yet have a good grasp of the Catholic notion of authority or the charism of limited and negative infallibility as defined by the Church at Vatican I.

>>>"I also think you know darn well what verses I might use to support my view on authority."

I'm sure you could find many (people use Scripture to support about anything), but the primitive Church knew of no such notion of authority as you would try to construct. The primitive model of the Church was Christians united in the Faith under an Apostolic teaching authority which the faithful submitted to in Faith.

>>>How is the Catholic conception of Apostolic Authority different than the Jewish conception of Rabbinic Authority?

I honestly don't know a great deal about the Rabbinic authority under the Old Covenant. Enlighten me.

 
At Sunday, June 05, 2005 8:27:00 AM, Blogger Peter said...

Arlan,

That link didn't work. What's the title to your article?

 
At Sunday, June 05, 2005 9:14:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Peter,

The link Arlan supplied is to a Mircosoft Word document which you must download to view . . . it's not a web page. At least, that's whay my browser told me.

"I follow a "morality" higher than myself because I believe that Christ founded a Church, His Body, speaking with His authority and His voice. In submitting to that same Church, I am doing nothing more than submitting to Him. And I would say this principle is no different than the primitive Apostolic practice as clearly found in Scripture. That is what I would like to talk specifically about, but it seems no one wants to go there."

You're mistaken. Except, if your compliant is that we won't let you define the argument and only dicuss matters in the bounds you define--maybe you are correct in that complaint.

What do you want, Peter? A blunt statement of what we believe and clearly see? It seems to me that it is rather obvious that we hold just as strong an opinion and feel our opinion is just as right and obvious. If you want a titantic clash of positions that can be easily supplied . . . and I doubt it will be much different than any titantic clash that you've had before.

So, if you are aching for some blunt rubuttal just ask and we can easily provide. But, at present, I think all three of us Purdys are trying to deal with what we see as a deeper problem--that which leads you to this statement of belief which we so clearly see as wrong. Obviously we come to a different conclusion. What you've stated above is a conclusion. It seems better to discuss what brought you to that conclusion. Since we don't agree with your conclusion or what brought you to that conclusion isn't it better to deal with what is closer to the beginning, not the conclusion?

But if all of this seemingly dealing with unimportant and unrelated issues is becoming wearisome we can provide you with whatever hardfisted and succinct declaration that your heart desires.

 
At Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:33:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

Rundy,

>>>What do you want, Peter? A blunt statement of what we believe and clearly see?

I would like you to expound on whether or not you think the Apostles had authority to teach in the early Church, and if those they taught needed to accept the apostolic teaching in Faith, or could judge as to what to take and what to leave.

This is not some radical Catholic claim, Christians across the board recognize that they were given authority by Christ, but I want to know if you do.

 
At Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:44:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Peter,

"I would like you to expound on whether or not you think the Apostles had authority to teach in the early Church"

Of course. But is this question as precise as you meant? Becase, I believe a lot of people besides the Apostles had authority to teach. Remember, not all of the NT cannon was written by Apostles. Further, I believe that "I" have authority to teach in this present day. So I think my answer isn't an answer to whatever niggling question you are trying to get at. I guess that means you'll have to word the question more precisely.

"if those they taught needed to accept the apostolic teaching in Faith, or could judge as to what to take and what to leave."

This question is a difficult question because it is a loaded question. In my opinion the question is phrased entirely wrong. I have a big problem with how you use "faith" and "judge" in these comments and I don't accept the either/or that you've set up.

In a following comment I will try to go into my problems more fully. At present I will refer you to Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

The Bereans were more noble for examining the Scriptures to determine if what Paul an Apostle said was true. Please note!! It doesn't say they were less noble, it doesn't say the shouldn't have examined what Paul said to see if it was true.

What does this tell you, Peter?

Aren't they called noble for examining the Scriptures every day to judge the validity of what Paul said? What does that say about how we should conduct ourselves?

Should we be like the Bereans or the Thessalonians? Most people would be shocked (Catholic or otherwise) at the thought of acting like the Bereans. Horrors if we sat down to determine if what Paul has written is true and in accord with the OT scriptures.

Why? Why shouldn't we follow the example of this primitive church which was praised as more noble? Why wasn't the Thessalonian church praised as more noble for not examining Paul's teaching? There is a reason, and I think we need to understand that reason.

I hope this is sufficiently succinct. Further comments on your use of "faith" and "judge" will be forthcoming, I hope.

 
At Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:38:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Peter,

I gather that you've been hoping for some kind of broader interaction with your John Newman quote. You feel we are nit-picking here and there while avoiding the broader, forceful, and unavoidable conclusion that Newman provides. For myself, there has been two reasons for my "avoidance" of Newman:

1. As you defined this discussion earlier, it is supposed to be about understanding and comparing two frameworks of authority, not arguing about which is correct. As such, I think I understand Newman's framework of authority.

2. I find Newman's argument so poor that I struggle to see the profit in tearing apart a piece of writing that you obviously see as forceful and persuasive but I clearly see as nothing better than the babble of a third grader.

I think that for similar (if perhaps not exactly the same) reasons Teman and Arlan have mostly avoided Newman. We see what Newman has written as so completely flawed that interacting with the whole is either a joke, or impossible. Taking the whole, we can only deconstruct it to show its worthlessness (in our eyes). But I don't recall that as being on the menu for this discussion so we look for bits here and there which we might comment on.

So if you detect a strained silence on Newman that is why.

Moving beyond Newman . . . Teman and I have been trying to point out what we see as contradictions contained in your statement of your authority framework. The issue of authority and understanding is one we both have been hammering on and which you still seem to not understand our point. Perhaps I'll give another go at that some other time, but today I would like to bring up a different contradiction that you've brought to the fore, that of this so called "Private Judgment" and "Faith."

In quoting Armstrong you say, "Private judgment is making oneself the ultimate arbiter of spiritual truth (with the aid of the Holy Spirit, the Bible, godly teachers, etc., but in the end the individual reigns supreme). The Catholic repudiates this."

And earlier, "Private judgement as critiqued by Newman and other Catholics is descriptive of a specific Protestant principle of authority and ecclesiology. It is related to the Protestant term "supremacy of conscience", in that if an individual feels that if the Holy Spirit teaches them a truth that conflicts with ANY outside authority, the individual conscience reigns supreme. In any such conflict the outside "human" authority must be disregarded, and the individuals' exercise of the "Holy Spirit" is the final authority."

Further you quote John Newman saying: "Now, in the first place, what is faith? it is assenting to a doctrine as true."

As background for my response I refer you to Romans chapter 14 and 1 Corinthians chapters 8 and 10. Concluding Romans chapter 14 Paul says that if someone believes in their conscience that something is wrong and yet does it they sin. (Romans 14:23.) Paul clearly sets up the principle that if our conscience convicts us that something is wrong (even if it is not wrong) then we cannot do that thing and please God.

Peter, where do you see a biblical distinction between conscience and faith, a distinction which allows you repudiate conscience? Do you believe we can say "I feel that such-and-such is wrong but since another Christian is doing it I can, in 'faith', do it too." This line of reasoning is exactly contrary to what Paul teaches in Romans chapter 14 and 1 Corinthians chapter 8 and 10.

If a person's conscience says "I don't believe in Christ. He did not die for mysins" of what worth are the words "Jesus is my savior" from his lips? His conscience convicts him as a liar. If the profession of our mouth was all that mattered we wouldn't need "Believe in our heart" (Rom. 10:9-10).

Is this "assent" that Newman talks about some abstract thing? As if somehow with our mouths we can say "true" while our conscience says "false?" If, on the other hand, Newman, Armstrong, and Peter Johnson agree that assent is the committing of the whole (including conscience) then how can you escape the position of individual conscience "reigning supreme?" After all, if in your heart your conscience testifies to you what you believe it is the "arbiter" of the revelation which you have received.

If someone's conscience says, "The Pope is not speaking for God" it means he has not accepted the Pope. If he says with his mouth "The Pope is speaking for God" he will be living a lie before men and God, not assenting to any truth--no matter if it is true, because in his heart he does not believe it is true.

Again, if our conscience convicts us that something is false we cannot assent to it in faith any more than a man who believes it is wrong to eat meat can in faith turn around and eat!

Much as it may irritate the Catholic church we are called to be "fully convinced in our own mind" (Rom. 14:5). God has not called us to exhort our fellow men to lie to themselves, before men and God, declaring things right that in their hearts they believe as wrong.

I have a lot of problems with various "Protestant" denominations but inasmuch as I am labeled "Protestant" I take issue with your statements of the supposed "Protestant" belief. It would seem, from your statement of things, that Protestants belief truth is relative and changing, depending on personal conscience. I (and I guess I won't dare to speak for the rest of the "Protestants" out there) do not believe that conscience creates truth but rather testifies to how much (or how little) truth is present in our individual lives.

Faith is the living yes, the conscience not ignored but in agreement with God, the judgment of "Amen" to what God has said.

 
At Monday, June 06, 2005 11:43:00 AM, Blogger Peter said...

I have to answer this one because this is the second time this verse has been used in this manner. This is a classic case of reading something into the verse that isn't there (in my opinion).

Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Now lets look at Acts 17:1-2 (KJV)
"Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures ..."

So we see that the Thessalonians also searched the Scriptures (either for 3 consecutive Sabbath days or the entire 3 weeks depending on how you read it) to see if what Paul said was true. Some of them believed, but the majority cause a riot and booted them out of town.

The Bereans were not commended because they searched the Scriptures and the Thessalonians had neglected to do so. They were commended as verse 11 states "for they received the message". It was because the Bereans accepted the Apostolic teaching, not because they read the Scriptures that they were commended (whereas the Thessalonians read the Scriptures and rejected the Gospel outright, likely because they didn't feel it jived with their reading of the Scriptures).

Do you disagree? If so why?

 
At Monday, June 06, 2005 11:56:00 AM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>"What supports Catholic authority in contrast to Rabbinical authority?"

That seems like asking "what supports Christianity in contrast to Judaism"?

The shortest answer I can give is that the Old Covenant was superceded by the New Covenant with the coming of Christ, therefore the Old Covenant authority was superceded by the New Covenant authority.

Part of any discussion on this would also depend on whether you hold to a Dispensationalist vs. Covenantal view of Israel and the Church. Most Reformed Christians and Catholic Christians hold to a covenenal schema, whereas many Anabaptists hold to the Dispensational schema.

 
At Monday, June 06, 2005 12:55:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Peter,

You're trying to make a separation not supported in the biblical text, and a distinction in what I said--a distinction I do not hold. I was not saying "Nobility is found in studying scripture apart from acceptance"

If we read the NIV it says, "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (!!)

That, please note, is a two part statement. It doesn't say they were more noble because they received the message--period. It says they were more noble because they received with great eagerness AND examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true

By your lights--as stated by yourself and quoted in Newman and Armstrong--this examining to see if Paul spoke the truth was sinful. They were judging Paul. Yes, he passed the judgment but that doesn't take away the fact that he was examined and judged.

Yet you hold the Catholic church repudiates private judgment.

What I have been saying is that the manifestation of receiving the message in great eagerness is demonstrated in exactly what the Bereans did. That is they themselves examined scripture to see if what Paul said was true. One whole act--examining the scriptures, judging Paul, accepting the message. You can't stop with the first part of the verse.

If you rather, we can take the KJV:

"11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few."

Notice: They received the word with all readiness of mind and searched the scriptures daily to see weather those things were so. Therefore (as a result of their judgment to determine if it was so) many believed.

Now, you can nit-pick all you like about how many more believed in Berea than Thessalonica . . . that is entirely beside my point. My point is that here in Acts we have it clearly stated that part and parcel of receiving this message nobly is the exercise of very personal judgment which the Catholic church reviles as a pernicious sin.

I by no means take away the acceptance. But I point you to the examination, judgment, and acceptance as one whole.

I await to see how you will remove the examination and judgment from this whole of acceptance.

 
At Monday, June 06, 2005 12:55:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

Arlan,

>>>I would say that the Apostles were not empowered to "create" authoritative teachings, but that they passed on the gospel which was itself authoritative.

I agree wholeheartedly.

>>>Anyone who taught the gospel had the same authority, insofar as they were teaching the gospel: Apollos, for example

This is where it becomes very problematic for me. If there is a dispute between two or more parties with mutually exclusive understanding on a portion of the Gospel, who has the true teaching?

I agree every individual had authority to to proclaim the Gospel, INSOFAR AS IT AGREED WITH THE GOSPEL OF THE APOSTLES, for their Gospel was the touchstone of orthodoxy. Any given individual's (or groups) teaching was to be rejected if it conflicted with the teaching of the Apostles.

While the Apostles were alive, the truth of what was the Gospel and what was error could be readily ascertained with an appeal to the Apostles themselves, who could clarify their own teaching, and outright reject anothers novel twisting of the true Gospel that they had received from Christ.

If that appeal to a living authority passed away with the death of the last Apostle, that which was so needful for preservation of the Gospel perished with it. Of course the Scriptures were left behind, but as St. Peter states:

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

 
At Monday, June 06, 2005 1:16:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>By your lights--as stated by yourself and quoted in Newman and Armstrong--this examining to see if Paul spoke the truth was sinful.

Rundy. You still are confusing what private judgement is (as I and other Cathoics critique it). It was not sinful or evil or anything else for the Bereans to examine to see if what Paul wrote was true.

Where it would have become a grave matter is if they had reasoned with Paul from the Scriptures, and then rejected what he was teaching them. They would be then exercising private judgement as I am critiquing it.

They would say in essence "I don't see your Gospel in my Scriptures, and therefore since your Gospel conflicts with my Scriptures, I reject your Gospel".

The supremacy of their reading and understanding of Scripture overriding and nullifying the Apostles teaching is where the gravity lies.

There were many (most?) Jews who exercised this private judgement as I describe, who rejected the Apostles teaching after hearing it, even after searching the Scriptures.

>>>I await to see how you will remove the examination and judgment from this whole of acceptance.

I don't and I won't. You see, the overriding neccessity was in the acceptance. To examine and judge and accept is perfectly fine. To examine and judge and not accept is where the problem lies, is it not. For the examination and judging could not lead them to the truth UNLESS they eventually accepted.

Agree, disagree?

 
At Monday, June 06, 2005 1:46:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>"I find Newman's argument so poor that I struggle to see the profit in tearing apart a piece of writing that you obviously see as forceful and persuasive but I clearly see as nothing better than the babble of a third grader.
I think that for similar (if perhaps not exactly the same) reasons Teman and Arlan have mostly avoided Newman. We see what Newman has written as so completely flawed that interacting with the whole is either a joke, or impossible."

The above statements come across to me as the height of intellectual snobbery. You can disagree with someone without relagating their argument to that of a "third grader". Many, many, non-Catholics disagree with Newman, but would never insult his intellegence, or begin to label him as incoherant or illogical, for they recognize him as neither.
My apologies in advance if I am wrong on this one.

>>>Peter, where do you see a biblical distinction between conscience and faith, a distinction which allows you repudiate conscience

Well, for one thing that would depend on whether a conscience is well-formed or not.

ie. If those who heard Paul preaching the Gospel could not believe it to to be true, were they then bound to reject it without consequence? If their "conscience" said "what Paul teaches is not true" then were they bound to reject Him?

I believe consciences can be ill-formed and resist grace, that it is possible.

 
At Monday, June 06, 2005 3:10:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

I don't think we'll get much further with this post.

I think you understand clearly that the first premise of my framework is that the Apostles held an unique office (that was not held by all individual Christians) in the early Church which consisted in part with an authority to teach and bind those under their authority.

"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven ..." spoken to the Apostles collectively as well as Peter individually.

I've actually been quite surprised that you all seem to reject any notion of Apostolic authority (again, if I understand you correctly). If this is the case, it puts you overwhelmingly at odds with Christians from almost all denominations, but perhaps you're a little proud of that.

I've enjoyed discussing this with you, and think you all likely have a good grasp of where I'm coming from with this premise, so I think I'll bow out.

I still would like to address at some point the question Rundy brought up over on John's board re: the Resurrection and intercession.

Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy love.
V. Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created.
R. And Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.

Let us pray

O God, Who taught the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit, grant that, by the gift of the same Spirit, we may be always truly wise, and ever rejoice in His consolation. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Peter

 
At Monday, June 06, 2005 6:44:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As you say I don't think we'll get much further with this. You welcome to post your second premise of framework and we can let it rest.

But to respond to a bit . . .

"Rundy. You still are confusing what private judgement is (as I and other Cathoics critique it). It was not sinful or evil or anything else for the Bereans to examine to see if what Paul wrote was true.

Where it would have become a grave matter is if they had reasoned with Paul from the Scriptures, and then rejected what he was teaching them. They would be then exercising private judgment as I am critiquing it.
"

Then all you're saying is it's wrong to come to the wrong conclusion?

How do you see Protestants disagreeing with the above two paragraphs? Armstrong and Newman certainly saw Protestants to holding to "private judgment" but I don't see a Protestant disagreeing with the statement that "It would have become a grave matter if they had reasoned with Paul from the Scriptures, and then rejected what he was teaching"

But I would point out that Newman said "if he waited for further proof before he believed it, this would be a proof that he did not think the Apostles were sent from God to reveal His will; it would be a proof that he did not in any true sense believe at all. Immediate, implicit submission of the mind was, in the lifetime of the Apostles, the only, the necessary token of faith;"

And it seems to me the Bereans waited for further proof and they did not give "immediate implicit submission of the mind"

"They would say in essence "I don't see your Gospel in my Scriptures, and therefore since your Gospel conflicts with my Scriptures, I reject your Gospel".

The supremacy of their reading and understanding of Scripture overriding and nullifying the Apostles teaching is where the gravity lies.
"

What problem do you have with someone stating their unbelief? That is in essence what such a person would be doing. They have looked and rejected God's teaching and declared their rejection before all. Isn't that as it should be?

"To examine and judge and not accept is where the problem lies, is it not."

I disagree. Both the accepting and the not accepting have served their purpose. The salvation of the one who has accepted is made known and the rejection of the other party is demonstrated. Our judgments reveals our hearts.

"For the examination and judging could not lead them to the truth UNLESS they eventually accepted."

Rather, I would say that if we believe examination and judging will lead us toward the truth. If we do not believe examination and judging will lead us away from the truth. But in both cases examination and judging is serving it's right purpose--it is revealing the state of our heart.

"ie. If those who heard Paul preaching the Gospel could not believe it to to be true, were they then bound to reject it without consequence? If their "conscience" said "what Paul teaches is not true" then were they bound to reject Him?"

No, not future tense. If people standing and listening to Paul and their consciences denied his words they HAD rejected him. Their conscience testified to the state if their heart.

""Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven ..." spoken to the Apostles collectively as well as Peter individually."

Yes, we are very familiar with the traditional Catholic understanding of that phrase. Of course I understand that differently.

"I've actually been quite surprised that you all seem to reject any notion of Apostolic authority (again, if I understand you correctly)."

It would be more correct to say that we reject any of YOUR notions of Apostolic authority. We do hold that the Apostles did have authority but either we have not explained our position well enough or you rejected it as not satisfying your litmus for Apostolic authority.

"If this is the case, it puts you overwhelmingly at odds with Christians from almost all denominations"

Depends. If you go back far enough in history I think the roots of some denominations (or groups--I don't know if you would consider various Anabaptist groups as "denominations") understood apostolic authority correctly. For the present day--yes. I think it can be said I am at odds with all denominations over their present manifested understanding of authority, whatever they might claim.

"perhaps you're a little proud of that."

I'm a little surprised your father hasn't already told you all about us and our degenerate ways.

"I've enjoyed discussing this with you, and think you all likely have a good grasp of where I'm coming from with this premise, so I think I'll bow out."

Yep. I kind of felt there wasn't much point in commenting on this particular post to begin with, but I thought you might have felt a little insulted if we didn't rake you over the coals at least a bit.

"I still would like to address at some point the question Rundy brought up over on John's board re: the Resurrection and intercession."

Go ahead.

"The above statements come across to me as the height of intellectual snobbery. You can disagree with someone without relagating their argument to that of a "third grader". Many, many, non-Catholics disagree with Newman, but would never insult his intellegence, or begin to label him as incoherant or illogical, for they recognize him as neither.
My apologies in advance if I am wrong on this one.
"

I never said Newman was incoherent.

In regards to intelligence, one can be very intelligent and make a very bad argument.

As for illogical--depends on how you're using it. It was very easy to follow the progression of Newman's thoughts so if that is how you use logic then he was logical. However, under strict logic he engaged in logical fallacies.

But as I hope you will note I didn't call Newman stupid, incoherent, or illogical. I said he babbled (or argued) like that of a third grader. How do third graders argue?

They do name calling. "You're stupid, etc." Surely you remember enough of your public school days.

According to strict logic Newman engaged in fallacies and he certainly did a lot of name calling.

I, according to Newman, am a "Pharisee and Sophist" (I think that constitutes as name calling).

If you are further interested in why I consider him to be name calling, I suggest you go back and pick up reading at this point: "They have not in them the principle of faith; and I repeat, it is nothing to the purpose to urge that at least they firmly believe Scripture to be the Word of God. In truth, it is much to be feared that their acceptance of Scripture itself is nothing better than a prejudice or inveterate feeling impressed on them when they were children [. . .]" and continue on to the end of your post. It seems to me an even not to careful reading can pick up a lot of dripping scorn and derision for those not in agreement with Newman. Of course, since you agree with Newman you may have difficulty seeing it.

I will point out that I am still immature enough that I responded in kind. Not commendable, of course, but I still hold that the substance of my accusation is correct, even if I am to be rightly rebuked for acting in kind.

But enough.

 
At Tuesday, June 07, 2005 7:45:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

>>>I don't see a Protestant disagreeing with the statement that "It would have become a grave matter if they had reasoned with Paul from the Scriptures, and then rejected what he was teaching"

I also don't think most Protestants would disagree with the above two paragraphs in relation to the primitive Church. For a Jew to override, nullify, and reject the living Apostlic teaching on the basis of his personal understanding of the Scriptures as an individual would be an exercise of an absolute right to private judgement as I am critiquing it. To be a believer was to exercise Faith that the Apostles were sent by God and that the Gospel they were preaching was true, whether their private understanding of the Scriptures as an individual lined up perfectly (or not so perfectly) with what the Apostles were teaching. I'm not a proponant of blind faith without any reason by any means, but even blind faith would be better than exercising an absolute right of private judgement to reject the teaching of the Apostles.

>>>And it seems to me the Bereans waited for further proof and they did not give "immediate implicit submission of the mind".

In the way you critique Newman here (if that is how he means this) I agree with you. I don't think all believers gave an "immediate implicit submission of the mind". Many likely did, others likely took a while longer and progressed more carefully before their final acceptance of the Apostolic teaching.

>>>What problem do you have with someone stating their unbelief? That is in essence what such a person would be doing.

I don't have a problem with someone stating their unbelief as such, and that that rejection has a purpose, but I was trying to reinforce the gravity of what a rejection implies.

>>>But in both cases examination and judging is serving it's right purpose--it is revealing the state of our heart.

Examination and judging can lead toward the truth or away from the truth. In the end however, reason can't proove, and an act of Faith is required.

>>>No, not future tense. If people standing and listening to Paul and their consciences denied his words they HAD rejected him. Their conscience testified to the state if their heart.

Regardless, a conscience that denies the truth whether past, present, or future is not a "free pass". I felt, or feel, or will feel my conscience saying that the truth is not true is not the end all or be all.

>>>I'm a little surprised your father hasn't already told you all about us and our degenerate ways.

Actually he said you were all like an unspoilt Eden, untouched by the stain of the outer world. (Just kidding!)

>>>It seems to me an even not to careful reading can pick up a lot of dripping scorn and derision for those not in agreement with Newman.

He did have his sights especially set on the "liberal" Protestants of his day. This harsher language likely was directly aimed at them, rather than someone of your ilk. Nonetheless, I can see how you could feel a bit rebuffed by those comments.

I do appreciate you guys taking the time and effort to post your thoughts and critiques. It is very helpful to me, and I know a bit more about you all.

If I could convince you all that beer really does taste good, I'd bring over a twelve pack and we could all drink (in moderation of course) around a late night fire.

This will be my last post here. Feel free to have the last word, I'll certainly read it.

Good Day,

Peter

 

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